Councillors clash over fire service cuts

Waverley councillors agreed to send a letter to Surrey County Council asking it to think again about cuts to Surrey Fire and Rescue Service after a heated debate that saw the proposal labelled 'puerile' by one Conservative councillor.

Godalming Labour councilllor George Wilson, who represents Farncombe and Catteshall on Waverley, had proposed the motion for Tuesday's meeting of the full council.

The move sought agreement to write to SCC asking it to reconsider changes to the service that have left parts of the borough with reduced cover. The motion had been seconded by Waverley's deputy leader, Lib Dem Paul Follows.

It read: "Waverley Borough Council is concerned to learn that changes to Surrey Fire and Rescue Services appear to have resulted in periods when fire cover for Waverley has been very limited, particularly in the more isolated rural areas at night. We request Surrey County Council to revisit this decision for the safety of our residents."

Cllr Wilson quoted from a letter sent to councillors by the county's chief fire officer, which quoted 8.57 minutes as the average response time for Surrey's fire crews.

"The response time initially was five minutes, and it's been changed on three occasions since 2010," he said.

Quoting figures for April 2020, he said phase one of the reforms under the Making Surrey Safer plan had removed four fire engines from night cover.

"As 75% of dwelling fires occur at night this is extremely dangerous and quite a reckless cut," he said.

"Phase two has cut another three fire engines from night cover, which will also have a detrimental effect on cover."

"Phase two calls for only 350 operational firefighters, which constitutes a 37% reduction in personnel since 2010. This while we as a council, and other councils in Surrey, are being urged by Government to build more and more accommodation.

"We have five fire stations in Waverley, and Freedom of Information figures from Surrey County Council show the times that one or more of them is unavailable during shifts. In September, in the daytime, there were 124 occasions where fire engines were not available. At night, it was 123 in December. In October, 100 daytime and 100 night-time when in our five fire stations one or more appliances was not available.

"On top of that many firefighters have left the fire service to transfer to other fire and rescue services as they are no longer willing to work in an environment which is detrimental to their health and safety."

Cllr Wilson claimed that SCC had failed to comply with its own emergency response standard, which, he said, has been downgraded three time in the last five years, and plans to cut 70 firefighter roles plus the removal of seven more fire engines from night cover this year means Surrey will continue to fail to meet that standard, he said.

Residents concerned.[.B]

Farnham Residents councillor Jerry Hyman said a lot of people were concerned about the reduction in fire cover and the move towards fire prevention "but not actually being there with a hose and putting things out". Godalming Conservative councillor Peter Martin defended the changes. "The key changes made in the service are all part of the Making Surrey Safer plan, a plan scrutinised by the National Fire Chiefs Council, reviewed by Her Majesty's Inspectorate, assured by Brunel University, put into effect a year ago and so now tested under pressure. "It was all about making changes to a service that had seen little change in 50 years. "The new plan is less about a reduction in resources and more about a rebalancing of those resources," he said, adding that in 2020 the service had attended 8% fewer fire incidents. Cranleigh Lib Dem councillor Liz Townsend said she had spoken to firefighters about the cuts, and "I can tell you that those I have spoken to are completely despondent and morale in the service is very low," she said. "They, who do the job, have deep concerns about what they see as an erosion in the resilience of the service." "The boots on the ground hold a very different opinion to the top brass. I think we should listen to people who actually do the job." Hearsay.

But Farnham Conservative councillor Carole Cockburn said objections to the changes were based on 'hearsay' and she was uneasy that councillors were challenging the word of the chief fire officer.

"I think it's quite disgraceful that we are coming down to this in this council chamber," she said. "I really think our standards have absolutely plummeted tonight. That we are putting ahead of the budget, which is the most important thing we do in the year, two of the most puerile motions that I have ever seen in this council chamber.

"I think it's disgraceful that all of the opposition, I think, voted against the budget to give the fire service more money... what on earth are people playing at? We have got the chief fire officer, we have got proof, we have got measurements that we can see that the service is working. And quite frankly until we see proof to the opposite of that I cannot doubt the chief fire officer's word. And I really don't think we should."

Binscombe Labour councillor Nick Palmer said that SFRS had 622 whole-time firefighters in 2010, with 104 full-time equivalent on call. Over the last 10 years the number had declined to 448. The number of full-time equivalent on call had declined to 80.

"Figures don't lie. We are less protected than we were 10 years ago," he said.

Alleging that Conservative councillors had been 'whipped' to vote against the motion, he added: "We see again here that Conservative councillors are not prepared to put the safety of their residents ahead of their party political objectives."

Elections.

Godalming Conservative Steve Cosser argued that adding the motion to a busy agenda was 'to do with the timing of the election and the election candidates," adding it was "cynical party political activity". And he slammed the motion as "one of the sloppiest motions I have ever seen" before asking why Lib Dems didn't raise the issue at county council level, and had voted against the county council budget that allocated 'significant capital funding' to the service. "The fact of the matter is we have far less fires. There has been an increasing and proper move towards more preventative work in the fire and rescue service," he added. Haslemere Conservative councillor Stephen Mulliner said the motions should have been accompanied by a backing paper giving more information, and urged for the vote to be delayed until more information was forthcoming. Farnham Residents councillor Andy MacLeod said that in 2018 Surrey's fire service had been deemed 'inadequate' by the inspectorate "in terms of efficiency and looking after the safety of people." He said there were problems with morale in the service that had not been helped by the funding cuts. " It's worthwhile saying to Surrey that they need to be careful what they're doing and that they're doing it correctly," he said. And he pointed out that councillors had to vote for budgets as a whole, and could not pick out particular aspects of them to vote against. Serious cuts

Godalming Lib Dem councillor and Waverley deputy leader Paul Follows defended the decision to bring the issue to the full council meeting.

"I'm proud that we will actually debate such motions, and we will bring them forward from all parties, from all levels of the council, from the executive and from the back benches. We will do that and have a proper debate without it being a whipped torpor of a council that is just going through the motions, which is what we experienced for years," he said.

He said Lib Dems had voted against the county council budget partly because it had cut funding for two children's centres in Godalming. The budget, he said, wasn't financially sound.

"There are some serious cuts that are going on and the fire service is one of them," he said.

"What we are doing here is seeking to find more information and asking them to revisit the Safer Surrey plan. I'm sure we can have a reasonable and amicable discussion with Surrey and with the fire service to get to the core of what the problems are."

Godalming Green Party councillor Steve Williams said 9% of Surrey firefighters had left the service since March. Surrey now has 380 operational personnel, down from 558, an overall reduction of 31% since 2010.

"I am aware... of the enormous pressure fire service staff are under and the huge dedication they bring to the job. I am disturbed by the low level of morale in the fire service." he said.

"The union that represents these dedicated public servants describes the service as threadbare and refers to a toxic culture. That is something that Surrey County Council should be addressing."

Not whipped.

Cranleigh Conservative councillor Mary Foryszewski took umbrage at the suggestion that Conservative councillors had been 'whipped' to oppose the motion. "I for one have not been whipped, I for one will not be whipped. Any decisions I make tonight, in the future, or in the past, I have made because I have come to my own conclusion about it," she said. Godalming Lib-Dem Anne-Marie Rosoman quoted Home Office statistics from November that showed the steepest rise in fire deaths in over a decade, going from one to nine between June 2018 and June 2019. "How can this plan work when the number of deaths have risen?" she asked. "It's no coincidence that fire deaths have risen when the response times are slow. "We just need to think back to the Thursley Commons fire last year, when there were fire engines from the whole of the surrounding area coming in, and at one point it was one of the farmer's daughters, who had a slurry lorry, who came and put out some fire that had leapt over the road. There is a clear disparity between what is needed and what is available." Blackheath and Wonersh Conservative councillor Michael Goodridge suggested it would have been better to raise the matter at the authority's Overview and Scrutiny Committee and call in the chief fire officer or another senior official to ask questions. "I would have thought that would have been a far better and more productive and more satisfactory way of dealing with it," he said. But Cllr Wilson said attempts to raise it at other committees had been unsuccessful. "I had no other way to raise it here than at this meeting," he said. "We will now get some answers from Surrey, who just don't want us to talk about it." The motion was passed by 32 votes to 8, with 13 abstentions.